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	<title>Comments on: Full of Stars</title>
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	<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/</link>
	<description>Theory In The Rough</description>
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		<title>By: Science of Logic&#8217;s 2nd Preface: Masters and Slaves &#171; Now-Times</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1470</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Science of Logic&#8217;s 2nd Preface: Masters and Slaves &#171; Now-Times]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] and Understanding (for an excellent examination of this section of the Phenomenology, see NP piece here) amounted to finding the appropriate way of conceiving the relationship between of what is [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and Understanding (for an excellent examination of this section of the Phenomenology, see NP piece here) amounted to finding the appropriate way of conceiving the relationship between of what is [...] </p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1469</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[N Pepperell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1469</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, I know that the general narrative is that Hegel makes a fundamental shift, and I&#039;m certainly in no position to argue against this narrative.  He is, though, fairly explicit in the opening to the &lt;em&gt;Logic&lt;/em&gt; that he at least thinks that what he&#039;s undertaking there, relies on and presupposes the work that&#039;s been undertaken in the &lt;em&gt;Phenomenology&lt;/em&gt;.  So I&#039;m in no position to assert anything either - other than a vague discomfort with the way in which it seems common to insist on a strong disjuncture between these works.  

On the essence/appearance issue:  he is already making a claim here for their identity - an identity, though, that relies on a sort of dynamic process of which these are moments.  From the other direction, the &lt;em&gt;Logic&lt;/em&gt; opens with possibly the best description of immanent critique I&#039;ve seen, anywhere - admittedly, we&#039;re not following an unfolding path traced by shapes of consciousness - but he does imply that whatever it is that we &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; following, has, as its starting point, where &lt;em&gt;Phenomenology&lt;/em&gt; has taken us to...  But I&#039;m not saying any of this as any kind of strong stance - I&#039;m not confident of my grasp on either of these texts, and I &lt;em&gt;am&lt;/em&gt; confident that I&#039;m not understanding the sharp divide that it seems common to draw between them, which suggests that something about my reading is really idiosyncratic - perhaps something minor, like what I&#039;m looking for in the text, but perhaps something more major and significant...

So yes:  I&#039;m looking forward to working through the &lt;em&gt;Logic&lt;/em&gt; too (and will probably keep tossing some things up on &lt;em&gt;Phenomenology&lt;/em&gt; here and there as well, since I still haven&#039;t blogged anything beyond the lord-bondsman discussion in that text ;-P).  But I definitely want to hold onto this thread for the reading group discussion.

I&#039;ll also be interested to see what Tom writes, in his &lt;a href=&quot;http://grundlegung.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/a-pound-of-precept-works-in-progress/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;projected discussion&lt;/a&gt; of the relationship between the &lt;em&gt;Phenomenology&lt;/em&gt; and the &lt;em&gt;Logic&lt;/em&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know that the general narrative is that Hegel makes a fundamental shift, and I&#8217;m certainly in no position to argue against this narrative.  He is, though, fairly explicit in the opening to the <em>Logic</em> that he at least thinks that what he&#8217;s undertaking there, relies on and presupposes the work that&#8217;s been undertaken in the <em>Phenomenology</em>.  So I&#8217;m in no position to assert anything either &#8211; other than a vague discomfort with the way in which it seems common to insist on a strong disjuncture between these works.  </p>
<p>On the essence/appearance issue:  he is already making a claim here for their identity &#8211; an identity, though, that relies on a sort of dynamic process of which these are moments.  From the other direction, the <em>Logic</em> opens with possibly the best description of immanent critique I&#8217;ve seen, anywhere &#8211; admittedly, we&#8217;re not following an unfolding path traced by shapes of consciousness &#8211; but he does imply that whatever it is that we <em>are</em> following, has, as its starting point, where <em>Phenomenology</em> has taken us to&#8230;  But I&#8217;m not saying any of this as any kind of strong stance &#8211; I&#8217;m not confident of my grasp on either of these texts, and I <em>am</em> confident that I&#8217;m not understanding the sharp divide that it seems common to draw between them, which suggests that something about my reading is really idiosyncratic &#8211; perhaps something minor, like what I&#8217;m looking for in the text, but perhaps something more major and significant&#8230;</p>
<p>So yes:  I&#8217;m looking forward to working through the <em>Logic</em> too (and will probably keep tossing some things up on <em>Phenomenology</em> here and there as well, since I still haven&#8217;t blogged anything beyond the lord-bondsman discussion in that text ;-P).  But I definitely want to hold onto this thread for the reading group discussion.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll also be interested to see what Tom writes, in his <a href="http://grundlegung.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/a-pound-of-precept-works-in-progress/" rel="nofollow">projected discussion</a> of the relationship between the <em>Phenomenology</em> and the <em>Logic</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexei</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1468</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alexei]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1468</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Before going to the Library...

I don&#039;t know the logic very well, N, which is one of the reasons I am so excited about the reading-group idea.  But from what I do know, there is a fundamental shift in Hegel&#039;s thinking, which takes place in the &lt;em&gt;Logic&lt;/em&gt; (and can also be found in the &lt;em&gt;Encyclopedia&lt;/em&gt; and the &lt;em&gt;Aesthetics&lt;/em&gt;): he replaces the Notional discourse with the &#039;appearance of the Idea.&#039;  This is a huge change, since it seems to transform the very conditions of &#039;immanent critique&#039; in favour of an explicitly speculative register. That is, instead of &#039;inhabiting a shape of consciousness&#039; and developing the embedded series of normative claims within it by uncovering contradictions, the speculative register begins with the explicit claim for the Identity of essence and Idea through Appearance (in the &lt;em&gt;Shorter Logic&lt;/em&gt; Hegel describes this via his conception of particularity, which welds together singularity and universality).   Simply put, there doesn&#039;t seem to be any Notion left.  

But I don&#039;t want to say more than this, since I&#039;m already on the verge of overstepping what I can confidently assert. We&#039;ll have to track it in the reading group!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before going to the Library&#8230;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the logic very well, N, which is one of the reasons I am so excited about the reading-group idea.  But from what I do know, there is a fundamental shift in Hegel&#8217;s thinking, which takes place in the <em>Logic</em> (and can also be found in the <em>Encyclopedia</em> and the <em>Aesthetics</em>): he replaces the Notional discourse with the &#8216;appearance of the Idea.&#8217;  This is a huge change, since it seems to transform the very conditions of &#8216;immanent critique&#8217; in favour of an explicitly speculative register. That is, instead of &#8216;inhabiting a shape of consciousness&#8217; and developing the embedded series of normative claims within it by uncovering contradictions, the speculative register begins with the explicit claim for the Identity of essence and Idea through Appearance (in the <em>Shorter Logic</em> Hegel describes this via his conception of particularity, which welds together singularity and universality).   Simply put, there doesn&#8217;t seem to be any Notion left.  </p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t want to say more than this, since I&#8217;m already on the verge of overstepping what I can confidently assert. We&#8217;ll have to track it in the reading group!</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1467</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[N Pepperell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1467</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alexei - I think you&#039;re right here - in a sense, I was struggling so much to figure out what the hell was going on in particular sections of the text (and also probably a bit distracted by the connections I&#039;m trying to make back to Marx), that I dropped this issue entirely.  But this wasn&#039;t intentional - in other words, it wasn&#039;t done in order to deny the points you&#039;re making, or to take this section outside the context in which it sits in the progression of the work as a whole.  Part of the problem, perhaps, was that I took this too much for granted - as in, I assume Hegel is trying to do such a thing, given the immanent nature of the critique, and I therefore didn&#039;t thematise it explicitly enough here...

By the way:  when parallel material crops up in the &lt;em&gt;Logic&lt;/em&gt;, on a very superficial read on my part at this point, it seems that Hegel alters some elements of the order of presentation.  This probably makes sense, given the different registers of the two works, but I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this - on what it means?  (Or on whether I&#039;m simply mistaken in having this impression...)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alexei &#8211; I think you&#8217;re right here &#8211; in a sense, I was struggling so much to figure out what the hell was going on in particular sections of the text (and also probably a bit distracted by the connections I&#8217;m trying to make back to Marx), that I dropped this issue entirely.  But this wasn&#8217;t intentional &#8211; in other words, it wasn&#8217;t done in order to deny the points you&#8217;re making, or to take this section outside the context in which it sits in the progression of the work as a whole.  Part of the problem, perhaps, was that I took this too much for granted &#8211; as in, I assume Hegel is trying to do such a thing, given the immanent nature of the critique, and I therefore didn&#8217;t thematise it explicitly enough here&#8230;</p>
<p>By the way:  when parallel material crops up in the <em>Logic</em>, on a very superficial read on my part at this point, it seems that Hegel alters some elements of the order of presentation.  This probably makes sense, given the different registers of the two works, but I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this &#8211; on what it means?  (Or on whether I&#8217;m simply mistaken in having this impression&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Alexei</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1466</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alexei]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know, N, for someone who keeps claiming that she doesn&#039;t understand this section, you&#039;ve done a superb job explicating the most difficult &#039;moments&#039; here!  This is an excellent reconstruction of the argument!

I have only one minor thing to add, which is based on my own &lt;em&gt; very personal, and highly idiosyncratic&lt;/em&gt; reading of the phenomenology: you don&#039;t emphasize enough how Hegel&#039;s labour here gives birth to the Notion, and that it is the self-reflective grasp of the Notion that opens up the possibility of Self-consciousness.  That is to say, I take the task of the first few sections of the text to be a &#039;phenomenological deduction&#039; of the Notion, and &#039;Self-consciousness&#039; through to &#039;Reason&#039; to be an articulation of the inherently socio-historical grounds of Spirit.

Let me rephrase slightly.  If we return to the first sentence of the Introduction of the &lt;em&gt;Phenomenology&lt;/em&gt;, we will remember that the starting point, as it were, for Hegel&#039;s considerations is framed by a dichotomy, an Either/Or: &lt;blockquote&gt; It is a natural assumption that in philosophy, before we start to deal with its proper subject-matter, viz. the actual cognition of what truly is, one must first of all come to an understanding about cognition, which is regarded &lt;strong&gt;either as the instrument to get hold of the Absolute, or as the medium through which one discovers it.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And, as you&#039;ve pointed out so elegantly above, the basic problem of &#039;Force and Understanding&#039; stems from a separation of law from the supersensible.  What needs to be emphasized, I think, is that this dichotomy, however subtle or nuanced it may be, remains within the problem space that Hegel indicates at the Beginning of the introduction.  Simply put, &#039;Force and understanding&#039; remains within the horizon of a fundamental misconception of the Absolute, and of the tasks of philosophy, for it treats the Absolute in a duplicitous manner: as noumenon, which the understanding works upon, and as a medium (Kingdom of Laws). So, the movement from Sense-certainty through Force and Understanding is really an attempt to immanently develop the Notion.  As Hegel puts it, &lt;blockquote&gt; This unconditioned universal [of perception], which is now the true object of consciousness, is still just an &lt;em&gt;object&lt;/em&gt; for it; consciousness has not yet grasped the Notion of the unconditioned as &lt;em&gt;Notion&lt;/em&gt; (§132)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and then a page later:&lt;blockquote&gt;What has emerged for it [i.e. the Understanding] as a result is the Notion of the True -- but only as the &lt;em&gt;implicit&lt;/em&gt; being of the True, which is not yet Notion, or which lacks &lt;em&gt;being-for-self&lt;/em&gt; of consciousness, and which the understanding without knowing itself therein, lets go its own way. (§ 133)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What makes this section so difficult, at least for me, is that the Understanding is, by definition, &lt;strong&gt;not-self-reflective&lt;/strong&gt;, and hence Hegel needs to coax out of it a a &lt;strong&gt;being-for-us&lt;/strong&gt; that remains problematic for-it (BTW I love your analogy of transposing a 3D object into a 2D space.  I think that&#039;s precisely the problem here).  And, since the Understanding is &#039;scientific&#039; the problem takes the form of the &#039;external conditions for the possibility of the being of truth&#039; (and which will later become &#039;life,&#039; once the Notion is explicit).

But this is a minor point, I think.

OK, I need to run to the library -- hopefully the above is coherent and helpful.

Cheers]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, N, for someone who keeps claiming that she doesn&#8217;t understand this section, you&#8217;ve done a superb job explicating the most difficult &#8216;moments&#8217; here!  This is an excellent reconstruction of the argument!</p>
<p>I have only one minor thing to add, which is based on my own <em> very personal, and highly idiosyncratic</em> reading of the phenomenology: you don&#8217;t emphasize enough how Hegel&#8217;s labour here gives birth to the Notion, and that it is the self-reflective grasp of the Notion that opens up the possibility of Self-consciousness.  That is to say, I take the task of the first few sections of the text to be a &#8216;phenomenological deduction&#8217; of the Notion, and &#8216;Self-consciousness&#8217; through to &#8216;Reason&#8217; to be an articulation of the inherently socio-historical grounds of Spirit.</p>
<p>Let me rephrase slightly.  If we return to the first sentence of the Introduction of the <em>Phenomenology</em>, we will remember that the starting point, as it were, for Hegel&#8217;s considerations is framed by a dichotomy, an Either/Or:<br />
<blockquote> It is a natural assumption that in philosophy, before we start to deal with its proper subject-matter, viz. the actual cognition of what truly is, one must first of all come to an understanding about cognition, which is regarded <strong>either as the instrument to get hold of the Absolute, or as the medium through which one discovers it.</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>And, as you&#8217;ve pointed out so elegantly above, the basic problem of &#8216;Force and Understanding&#8217; stems from a separation of law from the supersensible.  What needs to be emphasized, I think, is that this dichotomy, however subtle or nuanced it may be, remains within the problem space that Hegel indicates at the Beginning of the introduction.  Simply put, &#8216;Force and understanding&#8217; remains within the horizon of a fundamental misconception of the Absolute, and of the tasks of philosophy, for it treats the Absolute in a duplicitous manner: as noumenon, which the understanding works upon, and as a medium (Kingdom of Laws). So, the movement from Sense-certainty through Force and Understanding is really an attempt to immanently develop the Notion.  As Hegel puts it,<br />
<blockquote> This unconditioned universal [of perception], which is now the true object of consciousness, is still just an <em>object</em> for it; consciousness has not yet grasped the Notion of the unconditioned as <em>Notion</em> (§132)</p></blockquote>
<p>and then a page later:<br />
<blockquote>What has emerged for it [i.e. the Understanding] as a result is the Notion of the True &#8212; but only as the <em>implicit</em> being of the True, which is not yet Notion, or which lacks <em>being-for-self</em> of consciousness, and which the understanding without knowing itself therein, lets go its own way. (§ 133)</p></blockquote>
<p>What makes this section so difficult, at least for me, is that the Understanding is, by definition, <strong>not-self-reflective</strong>, and hence Hegel needs to coax out of it a a <strong>being-for-us</strong> that remains problematic for-it (BTW I love your analogy of transposing a 3D object into a 2D space.  I think that&#8217;s precisely the problem here).  And, since the Understanding is &#8216;scientific&#8217; the problem takes the form of the &#8216;external conditions for the possibility of the being of truth&#8217; (and which will later become &#8216;life,&#8217; once the Notion is explicit).</p>
<p>But this is a minor point, I think.</p>
<p>OK, I need to run to the library &#8212; hopefully the above is coherent and helpful.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Sublated Confusion</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1465</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Sublated Confusion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1465</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I take great pleasure in seeing other people confused by the same things that confuse me. In the library today, where I was not doing research on Hegel&#8217;s Phenomenology of Spirit, I [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I take great pleasure in seeing other people confused by the same things that confuse me. In the library today, where I was not doing research on Hegel&#8217;s Phenomenology of Spirit, I [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Before the Science</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/28/full-of-stars/#comment-1464</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Before the Science]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/full-of-stars/#comment-1464</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of Phenomenology of Spirit, you&#8217;ll still be seeing posts on the first third of the text, a year after the in-person reading group took place&#8230; Not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of Phenomenology of Spirit, you&#8217;ll still be seeing posts on the first third of the text, a year after the in-person reading group took place&#8230; Not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with [...] </p>
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