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	<title>Comments on: The Man Behind the Curtain</title>
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	<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/20/the-man-behind-the-curtain/</link>
	<description>Theory In The Rough</description>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Before the Science</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/20/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1459</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Before the Science]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The Man Behind the Curtain&#160;&#160;(3) N Pepperell, Joseph Kugelmass, Dallas Fortworth [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Man Behind the Curtain&nbsp;&nbsp;(3) N Pepperell, Joseph Kugelmass, Dallas Fortworth [...] </p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/20/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1458</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[N Pepperell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1458</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Joe - yes - I really wanted to find a clearer still of that scene, but couldn&#039;t uncover one...  Good to hear it was clear enough what it was...

I definitely wasn&#039;t aiming for anything Cartesian in this gloss - my terminology may be a bit weird in these latest posts, as my head is more than halfway in &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt;, and so I&#039;m writing these, in part, to work out connections betweeen the two texts - to figure out what Marx is taking &lt;em&gt;from&lt;/em&gt; Hegel (and therefore agreeing with and carrying over into his own work), and what he&#039;s spoofing in Hegel (and therefore trying to &quot;criticise&quot;.  These are of course somewhat overlapping, as Marx shares with Hegel the concept that you &quot;criticise&quot; something, not in order to toss it out, but in order to establish the conditions of its possibility and therefore render it rationally available.  In any event, I&#039;m speaking on a tangent here - I&#039;m not overtly writing on this, and don&#039;t expect readers to get this out of what I&#039;m writing - just explaining why some of what I&#039;m writing may sound a bit odd, in terms of what it emphasises or how it&#039;s phrased.

The issue of error in Hegel - and in Marx - is weird.  I was wincing a bit when writing both this and the subsequent post, as I wasn&#039;t spending any time on the issue that there are no &quot;mere&quot; errors - what&#039;s being described isn&#039;t understood as a &quot;mistake&quot; in any conventional sense - this would strike Hegel, I think, as an &quot;abstract negation&quot;.  Instead, he positions perception, understanding, etc., as sort of plausible approximations, aiming toward an endpoint that is more adequate, and from the standpoint of which they can be judged as partial - but not exactly as errors.  So I think that term, and the similar terms I use in these posts, are right to make you a bit uneasy.  I&#039;ve written on this issue in other places, of course, but I don&#039;t carry it through here explicitly.

So, yes, your formulation is good - Hegel would probably say it risks implying something more psychologistic than what he has in mind:  in other words, he&#039;d probably worry that both of us are using terms that carry risks of Cartesian misinterpretations.  But your formulation has advantages over the ones I used in this post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Joe &#8211; yes &#8211; I really wanted to find a clearer still of that scene, but couldn&#8217;t uncover one&#8230;  Good to hear it was clear enough what it was&#8230;</p>
<p>I definitely wasn&#8217;t aiming for anything Cartesian in this gloss &#8211; my terminology may be a bit weird in these latest posts, as my head is more than halfway in <em>Capital</em>, and so I&#8217;m writing these, in part, to work out connections betweeen the two texts &#8211; to figure out what Marx is taking <em>from</em> Hegel (and therefore agreeing with and carrying over into his own work), and what he&#8217;s spoofing in Hegel (and therefore trying to &#8220;criticise&#8221;.  These are of course somewhat overlapping, as Marx shares with Hegel the concept that you &#8220;criticise&#8221; something, not in order to toss it out, but in order to establish the conditions of its possibility and therefore render it rationally available.  In any event, I&#8217;m speaking on a tangent here &#8211; I&#8217;m not overtly writing on this, and don&#8217;t expect readers to get this out of what I&#8217;m writing &#8211; just explaining why some of what I&#8217;m writing may sound a bit odd, in terms of what it emphasises or how it&#8217;s phrased.</p>
<p>The issue of error in Hegel &#8211; and in Marx &#8211; is weird.  I was wincing a bit when writing both this and the subsequent post, as I wasn&#8217;t spending any time on the issue that there are no &#8220;mere&#8221; errors &#8211; what&#8217;s being described isn&#8217;t understood as a &#8220;mistake&#8221; in any conventional sense &#8211; this would strike Hegel, I think, as an &#8220;abstract negation&#8221;.  Instead, he positions perception, understanding, etc., as sort of plausible approximations, aiming toward an endpoint that is more adequate, and from the standpoint of which they can be judged as partial &#8211; but not exactly as errors.  So I think that term, and the similar terms I use in these posts, are right to make you a bit uneasy.  I&#8217;ve written on this issue in other places, of course, but I don&#8217;t carry it through here explicitly.</p>
<p>So, yes, your formulation is good &#8211; Hegel would probably say it risks implying something more psychologistic than what he has in mind:  in other words, he&#8217;d probably worry that both of us are using terms that carry risks of Cartesian misinterpretations.  But your formulation has advantages over the ones I used in this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Kugelmass</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/20/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1457</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joseph Kugelmass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1457</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NP,

Thanks for the link! Naturally, I was hoping that the terrific images (particularly the eerie film-within-a-film of Dorothy watching the bicyclist, which comes closest to Hegel&#039;s logic) would deliver people to the content. 

I would put the matter only slightly differently, and I wonder if you agree. It&#039;s not so much that consciousness recovers from the error of thinking certain things are outside of it -- though that is true -- towards the attainment of a closed, internal self-certainty (e.g. the Cartesian model of the knowable, reflexive &quot;formal reality&quot; of thought). Rather, thought discovers itself as something that &lt;i&gt;unfolds through alienation&lt;/i&gt;, that comes to know itself through the immanent production of itself as other, as object.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NP,</p>
<p>Thanks for the link! Naturally, I was hoping that the terrific images (particularly the eerie film-within-a-film of Dorothy watching the bicyclist, which comes closest to Hegel&#8217;s logic) would deliver people to the content. </p>
<p>I would put the matter only slightly differently, and I wonder if you agree. It&#8217;s not so much that consciousness recovers from the error of thinking certain things are outside of it &#8212; though that is true &#8212; towards the attainment of a closed, internal self-certainty (e.g. the Cartesian model of the knowable, reflexive &#8220;formal reality&#8221; of thought). Rather, thought discovers itself as something that <i>unfolds through alienation</i>, that comes to know itself through the immanent production of itself as other, as object.</p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Full of Stars</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/20/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1456</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Full of Stars]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1456</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] how consciousness moves from its initial experience of itself in an uncertain and tenuous relationship with an external object, through its confrontation with infinity, toward Self-Consciousness. [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] how consciousness moves from its initial experience of itself in an uncertain and tenuous relationship with an external object, through its confrontation with infinity, toward Self-Consciousness. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Dallas Fortworth</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/12/20/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1455</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dallas Fortworth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 02:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/the-man-behind-the-curtain/#comment-1455</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hegel &amp; Marx. Doesn&#039;t that make you feel all intellectual! At least you&#039;re not proletarian.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hegel &amp; Marx. Doesn&#8217;t that make you feel all intellectual! At least you&#8217;re not proletarian.</p>
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