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	<title>Comments on: Devaluing Labour</title>
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	<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/</link>
	<description>Theory In The Rough</description>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Capital, Volume 1, Chapter 1: A Way of Visualising Abstract Labour and Value</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-994</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Capital, Volume 1, Chapter 1: A Way of Visualising Abstract Labour and Value]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-994</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I find it useful to think about abstract labour in terms of sets and subsets, each enacted in collective practice. [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I find it useful to think about abstract labour in terms of sets and subsets, each enacted in collective practice. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Capital, Volume 1, Chapter 1: Fragment on Form and Content</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-993</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Capital, Volume 1, Chapter 1: Fragment on Form and Content]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-993</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The passage suggests that there is a material content - use value - that is timeless and “true”, which comes in history to be covered over by arbitrary social “forms”, which are contingent and ephemeral. [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The passage suggests that there is a material content &#8211; use value &#8211; that is timeless and “true”, which comes in history to be covered over by arbitrary social “forms”, which are contingent and ephemeral. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Capital, Volume 1, Chapter 1: What Is the &#8220;Social Character of Labour&#8221; in Capitalism?</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-992</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Capital, Volume 1, Chapter 1: What Is the &#8220;Social Character of Labour&#8221; in Capitalism?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-992</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] thinking out loud a bit about what Marx means by the following comment, from the section on commodity fetishism:

    This Fetishism of commodities has its origin, as the foregoing analysis has already shown, in the peculiar social character of the labour that produces them.

So what is the peculiar social character of this labour? [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thinking out loud a bit about what Marx means by the following comment, from the section on commodity fetishism:</p>
<p>    This Fetishism of commodities has its origin, as the foregoing analysis has already shown, in the peculiar social character of the labour that produces them.</p>
<p>So what is the peculiar social character of this labour? [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; The Ghost in the Machine</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; The Ghost in the Machine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I love these passages, and I think that they are directly on point to what Marx is trying to argue, when he talks about the “labour theory of value”: Marx is precisely not making an argument about labour’s role in the production of material wealth. He is well aware of the increasing role of machinery and technology in the material reproduction of society. For Marx, however, this sets up a central problem for social analysis - why something like the labour theory of value (originating, of course, with the political economists, rather than with Marx) should still seem to capture something central to capitalist society. [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I love these passages, and I think that they are directly on point to what Marx is trying to argue, when he talks about the “labour theory of value”: Marx is precisely not making an argument about labour’s role in the production of material wealth. He is well aware of the increasing role of machinery and technology in the material reproduction of society. For Marx, however, this sets up a central problem for social analysis &#8211; why something like the labour theory of value (originating, of course, with the political economists, rather than with Marx) should still seem to capture something central to capitalist society. [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-990</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[hi NP, 
You&#039;re welcome, thanks for the great blog! I always feel a bit nervous in recommending things because I&#039;m nervous about coming off as pedantic or condescending. Glad to know I didn&#039;t. (Lump tells me to stop worrying.) I hope your teaching life calms down a bit, sounds hectic. Oh before I forget, I just skimmed your post  (much I want to go back to on your blog and read when I get a chance) where you mentioned someone else&#039;s post on Fichte, there&#039;s a book by Tom Rockmore on Marx and Fichte that I remember liking, if you&#039;re interested in that combo.
take care,
Nate]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi NP,<br />
You&#8217;re welcome, thanks for the great blog! I always feel a bit nervous in recommending things because I&#8217;m nervous about coming off as pedantic or condescending. Glad to know I didn&#8217;t. (Lump tells me to stop worrying.) I hope your teaching life calms down a bit, sounds hectic. Oh before I forget, I just skimmed your post  (much I want to go back to on your blog and read when I get a chance) where you mentioned someone else&#8217;s post on Fichte, there&#8217;s a book by Tom Rockmore on Marx and Fichte that I remember liking, if you&#8217;re interested in that combo.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate</p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[N Pepperell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 22:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nate - Many thanks for this.  Always happy to get recommendations for readings - my background is weirdly scattered (spread too thin across too many different types of writing), and so chances are generally good that I won&#039;t have read something I should have!

I tend to read Marx as working a great deal with notions of ambivalence - it gives his work a very supple normative core, enabling it to provide a basis for interpreting movements as romantic, affirmative, utopian (in the sense of unrealisable), etc., by providing a way of slicing through aspects of capitalism, turning things around and asking, &quot;Well, what else could we do with &lt;em&gt;this&lt;/em&gt;?&quot; - taking seriously the notion that things don&#039;t have to remain in the state in which we&#039;ve inherited them, but also providing a basis for understanding why emancipatory transformation might be so difficult, because the context itself makes it easy for the eye and the heart to be diverted and become confused...

Running this morning (this is my &quot;horror day&quot; teaching...) - just wanted to say thanks for the recommendations and comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate &#8211; Many thanks for this.  Always happy to get recommendations for readings &#8211; my background is weirdly scattered (spread too thin across too many different types of writing), and so chances are generally good that I won&#8217;t have read something I should have!</p>
<p>I tend to read Marx as working a great deal with notions of ambivalence &#8211; it gives his work a very supple normative core, enabling it to provide a basis for interpreting movements as romantic, affirmative, utopian (in the sense of unrealisable), etc., by providing a way of slicing through aspects of capitalism, turning things around and asking, &#8220;Well, what else could we do with <em>this</em>?&#8221; &#8211; taking seriously the notion that things don&#8217;t have to remain in the state in which we&#8217;ve inherited them, but also providing a basis for understanding why emancipatory transformation might be so difficult, because the context itself makes it easy for the eye and the heart to be diverted and become confused&#8230;</p>
<p>Running this morning (this is my &#8220;horror day&#8221; teaching&#8230;) &#8211; just wanted to say thanks for the recommendations and comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-988</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 20:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-988</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is an excellent post and very helpful, thank you. Among other things, I like how you engage with people who reject Marx out of hand, my own impulse is to just reject them out of hand, which isn&#039;t productive at all. I also like how your post stresses the ambivalence of technology in the present. That&#039;s useful for criticizing actually existing technology, so to speak, and its uses but not rejecting technology as such. This impulse has inspired tiny left groups in at least three countries and languages - ZeroWork, Lavoro Zero, and TrabajoZero - to say that the positive use of technology should be to reduce labor time. I think Marx makes some remark about this as well in the Grundrisse, about what wealth might be after capitalism. If you don&#039;t know his work, I find Harry Cleaver quite good on technology and on Marx on technology. I&#039;ve also found the book CyberMarx helpful (despite the poor title) and this essay by Raniero Panzieri, &quot;The Capitalist Use of Machinery.&quot; http://www.geocities.com/cordobakaf/panzieri.html

take care,
Nate]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an excellent post and very helpful, thank you. Among other things, I like how you engage with people who reject Marx out of hand, my own impulse is to just reject them out of hand, which isn&#8217;t productive at all. I also like how your post stresses the ambivalence of technology in the present. That&#8217;s useful for criticizing actually existing technology, so to speak, and its uses but not rejecting technology as such. This impulse has inspired tiny left groups in at least three countries and languages &#8211; ZeroWork, Lavoro Zero, and TrabajoZero &#8211; to say that the positive use of technology should be to reduce labor time. I think Marx makes some remark about this as well in the Grundrisse, about what wealth might be after capitalism. If you don&#8217;t know his work, I find Harry Cleaver quite good on technology and on Marx on technology. I&#8217;ve also found the book CyberMarx helpful (despite the poor title) and this essay by Raniero Panzieri, &#8220;The Capitalist Use of Machinery.&#8221; <a href="http://www.geocities.com/cordobakaf/panzieri.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/cordobakaf/panzieri.html</a></p>
<p>take care,<br />
Nate</p>
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		<title>By: Roughtheory.org &#187; Turning the Tables</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-987</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roughtheory.org &#187; Turning the Tables]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-987</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I agree with the main point here - I see nothing in digital commodities that is different in terms of the role they play within capitalist reproduction to other sorts of commodities (this doesn’t of course mean that new technologies can’t introduce novel potentials for the development of new forms of subjectivity, embodied relationships, etc., but it does mean that there is nothing intrinsically non-capitalist about the new technologies). [...] ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I agree with the main point here &#8211; I see nothing in digital commodities that is different in terms of the role they play within capitalist reproduction to other sorts of commodities (this doesn’t of course mean that new technologies can’t introduce novel potentials for the development of new forms of subjectivity, embodied relationships, etc., but it does mean that there is nothing intrinsically non-capitalist about the new technologies). [...] </p>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-986</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[N Pepperell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-986</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh surely they don&#039;t weigh &lt;em&gt;that&lt;/em&gt; heavily!

The question, I suppose, is what you mean by the &quot;ontological understanding of &#039;time&#039;&quot;.  Personally - leaving Marx aside - I think the distinctive &quot;structure&quot; of time in the modern era (and the perceptions of this structure) is something that would need to be theorised.  I (again personally) don&#039;t think that we are dealing with a &quot;mere&quot; perception - I think a temporal pattern is being enacted in collective practice.  I just tend to think that the pattern is not itself as &quot;rigorous&quot; as would be implied by a strictly quantitative interpretation of what Marx was trying to get at by the notion of socially average labour time - so, I think there are tendencies, for example, for technologies, forms of organisation, etc., to spread in dramatic, &quot;snowballing&quot; cascades - but a complex range of more aleatory (at least with reference to this kind of theory) factors determine how this unfolds, such that the general pattern is observable at a very general level and on a long historical scale, but with a large number of eddies and side currents running in tandem with this overarching trend.  

I think there&#039;s quite a lot of textual evidence in &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt; that Marx is aware of what I&#039;m calling eddies and side trends - which is what makes me wonder whether he does believe that there is something underneath that could be quantified, or whether this interpretation might be one of many unfortunate instances where people have interpreted Marx to be &lt;em&gt;saying&lt;/em&gt; something that he is in fact &lt;em&gt;criticising&lt;/em&gt;.  It&#039;s just that the main lines of interpretation here are, I think, sufficiently strong, that I&#039;m not sure how confident I am in pushing an outlying reading of Marx in this particular respect - so I dither a bit.  And, since I&#039;ve been more interested in what can we pull from Marx (and many others) for contemporary theory than in Marx&#039;s &quot;intent&quot;, I haven&#039;t done the sort of work on Marx&#039;s text that would be required to fight back against the weight of this particular tradition on the brains of the living...

The &quot;dead weight of tradition&quot; issue is interesting.  I tend to read this in a Benjaminian sense:  as a comment about the historically constituted potentials that the present bears within itself - potentials that, in alienated form, function more as forms of compulsion or constraint, than as potentials that could be developed into new forms of freedom.

The relationship to Hegel is also interesting - but I&#039;m not sure how you read Hegel?  Are you wondering whether Marx retains a sort of transhistorical notion of &quot;progress&quot;?  The sort of narrative that seems to be reflected in his more generalising statements about human societies and how they come to be transformed?  I think it&#039;s unclear, by &lt;em&gt;Capital&lt;/em&gt;, whether Marx understands himself to be unfolding just the latest example of how the development of technology has prepared the way for the revolutionisation of a form of social life, or whether he is doing something more historically specified - trying to argue more that, in spite of appearances, there is no &quot;material&quot; reason that our society can&#039;t be transformed - while analysing the &quot;appearances&quot; that can disguise this contingency, and also analysing (although here, I think, in a more undeveloped way than he could have) the forms of subjectivity that point toward a different form of social life.

I&#039;ll have to apologise - my laptop battery is inexplicably about to run out of power (should have another couple of hours in it - technology, you know...  ;-P).  I&#039;ll post this, with apologies that it isn&#039;t quite all I had intended to say, and I haven&#039;t had a chance even to look over it...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh surely they don&#8217;t weigh <em>that</em> heavily!</p>
<p>The question, I suppose, is what you mean by the &#8220;ontological understanding of &#8216;time&#8217;&#8221;.  Personally &#8211; leaving Marx aside &#8211; I think the distinctive &#8220;structure&#8221; of time in the modern era (and the perceptions of this structure) is something that would need to be theorised.  I (again personally) don&#8217;t think that we are dealing with a &#8220;mere&#8221; perception &#8211; I think a temporal pattern is being enacted in collective practice.  I just tend to think that the pattern is not itself as &#8220;rigorous&#8221; as would be implied by a strictly quantitative interpretation of what Marx was trying to get at by the notion of socially average labour time &#8211; so, I think there are tendencies, for example, for technologies, forms of organisation, etc., to spread in dramatic, &#8220;snowballing&#8221; cascades &#8211; but a complex range of more aleatory (at least with reference to this kind of theory) factors determine how this unfolds, such that the general pattern is observable at a very general level and on a long historical scale, but with a large number of eddies and side currents running in tandem with this overarching trend.  </p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s quite a lot of textual evidence in <em>Capital</em> that Marx is aware of what I&#8217;m calling eddies and side trends &#8211; which is what makes me wonder whether he does believe that there is something underneath that could be quantified, or whether this interpretation might be one of many unfortunate instances where people have interpreted Marx to be <em>saying</em> something that he is in fact <em>criticising</em>.  It&#8217;s just that the main lines of interpretation here are, I think, sufficiently strong, that I&#8217;m not sure how confident I am in pushing an outlying reading of Marx in this particular respect &#8211; so I dither a bit.  And, since I&#8217;ve been more interested in what can we pull from Marx (and many others) for contemporary theory than in Marx&#8217;s &#8220;intent&#8221;, I haven&#8217;t done the sort of work on Marx&#8217;s text that would be required to fight back against the weight of this particular tradition on the brains of the living&#8230;</p>
<p>The &#8220;dead weight of tradition&#8221; issue is interesting.  I tend to read this in a Benjaminian sense:  as a comment about the historically constituted potentials that the present bears within itself &#8211; potentials that, in alienated form, function more as forms of compulsion or constraint, than as potentials that could be developed into new forms of freedom.</p>
<p>The relationship to Hegel is also interesting &#8211; but I&#8217;m not sure how you read Hegel?  Are you wondering whether Marx retains a sort of transhistorical notion of &#8220;progress&#8221;?  The sort of narrative that seems to be reflected in his more generalising statements about human societies and how they come to be transformed?  I think it&#8217;s unclear, by <em>Capital</em>, whether Marx understands himself to be unfolding just the latest example of how the development of technology has prepared the way for the revolutionisation of a form of social life, or whether he is doing something more historically specified &#8211; trying to argue more that, in spite of appearances, there is no &#8220;material&#8221; reason that our society can&#8217;t be transformed &#8211; while analysing the &#8220;appearances&#8221; that can disguise this contingency, and also analysing (although here, I think, in a more undeveloped way than he could have) the forms of subjectivity that point toward a different form of social life.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to apologise &#8211; my laptop battery is inexplicably about to run out of power (should have another couple of hours in it &#8211; technology, you know&#8230;  ;-P).  I&#8217;ll post this, with apologies that it isn&#8217;t quite all I had intended to say, and I haven&#8217;t had a chance even to look over it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2007/07/31/devaluing-labour/#comment-985</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/devaluing-labour/#comment-985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In response to your instincts (as I have (mis)understood them?!) I would agree that Marx IS trying to ‘graft’ what can be termed ‘capitalist signifiers’ to a ‘dialectic’ subjectivity. This effort does justify an engagement with the “ontological” conflation of “labour time.” 
I wonder if the persuasiveness, intuitiveness (and I would cautiously add ‘relevance’) of interpretative categories in Capital are best read in light of comments made by Marx elsewhere? 

“The tradition [and metaphysical assumptions] of all dead generations weighs like an Alp on the brains of the living.”

However, I would tend to argue that any talk of the ‘persuasiveness’ of the interpretative categories used by Marx relates more to the ‘deep structures’ (or ‘non-random forms of perception’) that coalesce around the concept of ‘time’ rather than ‘labour.’    

In brief (and ever so crudely), I feel that the ontological understanding of ‘time,’ (something Marx inherits from Hegel? Something at least mentioned in the &#039;will&#039;!) is the limiting factor in ideas about ‘labour time.’ A limit that compels Marx down the futile path of trying to quantify socially averaged labour time (and I agree that he can be read backwards) and a limit that ensures that in his narrative the concept of ‘technology’ is always ‘coupled’ with the (temporal) concept of ‘progress.’]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to your instincts (as I have (mis)understood them?!) I would agree that Marx IS trying to ‘graft’ what can be termed ‘capitalist signifiers’ to a ‘dialectic’ subjectivity. This effort does justify an engagement with the “ontological” conflation of “labour time.”<br />
I wonder if the persuasiveness, intuitiveness (and I would cautiously add ‘relevance’) of interpretative categories in Capital are best read in light of comments made by Marx elsewhere? </p>
<p>“The tradition [and metaphysical assumptions] of all dead generations weighs like an Alp on the brains of the living.”</p>
<p>However, I would tend to argue that any talk of the ‘persuasiveness’ of the interpretative categories used by Marx relates more to the ‘deep structures’ (or ‘non-random forms of perception’) that coalesce around the concept of ‘time’ rather than ‘labour.’    </p>
<p>In brief (and ever so crudely), I feel that the ontological understanding of ‘time,’ (something Marx inherits from Hegel? Something at least mentioned in the &#8216;will&#8217;!) is the limiting factor in ideas about ‘labour time.’ A limit that compels Marx down the futile path of trying to quantify socially averaged labour time (and I agree that he can be read backwards) and a limit that ensures that in his narrative the concept of ‘technology’ is always ‘coupled’ with the (temporal) concept of ‘progress.’</p>
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