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	<title>Comments on: Noblesse Oblige</title>
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	<description>Theory In The Rough</description>
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		<title>By: N Pepperell</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2006/11/26/noblesse-oblige/#comment-329</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[N Pepperell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 07:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/noblesse-oblige/#comment-329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prelapsarian!  Now there&#039;s a word that brings back memories - not, in my case, of the Protestant sermons of my youth (although my youth did entail periodic doses of Protestant sermons, these tended to relate to more ominous topics - I remember a lot of evocations of hellfire and brimstone, but very little idylling by anyone of any sort...) - but I spent years mapping out how medieval mendicant movements, in particular, understood the prelapsarian state...  

But yes, I think you&#039;re right - both that a similar form of thought is involved in this kind of romanticism, and that my appeal to rationality is, so the speak, outside of the frame - that rationality would also be perceived as part of the problem, in this framework.

What makes my position a bit more of an immanent critique, though, is that these quotations (assuming they&#039;re accurate) come from an academic - and, as I&#039;ve blogged &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.roughtheory.org/content/inconvenient-facts/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;before&lt;/a&gt;, while I don&#039;t buy Weber&#039;s epistemology, I do buy his notion that claiming academic authority binds us to specific standards - among them, a commitment to principles of rationality and evidence.  If someone wants to step into a religious space, I&#039;m happy to have them offer all kinds of jeremiads on the fall from grace of humankind - I draw the line when they cloak what are essentially mystical claims in an academic aura...

That said, I&#039;d have left this piece alone if I had thought it was a true &quot;outlier&quot; - or if I perceived it as something that would appear only in a journalistic medium.  The article irritated me, though, precisely because I have seen this sort of claim in more formal academic discussion...  So I&#039;ve sacrificed my sunny Sunday afternoon (no idylling!!!) to defend the academy from this sacrilege...  ;-P]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prelapsarian!  Now there&#8217;s a word that brings back memories &#8211; not, in my case, of the Protestant sermons of my youth (although my youth did entail periodic doses of Protestant sermons, these tended to relate to more ominous topics &#8211; I remember a lot of evocations of hellfire and brimstone, but very little idylling by anyone of any sort&#8230;) &#8211; but I spent years mapping out how medieval mendicant movements, in particular, understood the prelapsarian state&#8230;  </p>
<p>But yes, I think you&#8217;re right &#8211; both that a similar form of thought is involved in this kind of romanticism, and that my appeal to rationality is, so the speak, outside of the frame &#8211; that rationality would also be perceived as part of the problem, in this framework.</p>
<p>What makes my position a bit more of an immanent critique, though, is that these quotations (assuming they&#8217;re accurate) come from an academic &#8211; and, as I&#8217;ve blogged <a href="http://www.roughtheory.org/content/inconvenient-facts/" rel="nofollow">before</a>, while I don&#8217;t buy Weber&#8217;s epistemology, I do buy his notion that claiming academic authority binds us to specific standards &#8211; among them, a commitment to principles of rationality and evidence.  If someone wants to step into a religious space, I&#8217;m happy to have them offer all kinds of jeremiads on the fall from grace of humankind &#8211; I draw the line when they cloak what are essentially mystical claims in an academic aura&#8230;</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;d have left this piece alone if I had thought it was a true &#8220;outlier&#8221; &#8211; or if I perceived it as something that would appear only in a journalistic medium.  The article irritated me, though, precisely because I have seen this sort of claim in more formal academic discussion&#8230;  So I&#8217;ve sacrificed my sunny Sunday afternoon (no idylling!!!) to defend the academy from this sacrilege&#8230;  ;-P</p>
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		<title>By: L Magee</title>
		<link>http://roughtheory.org/2006/11/26/noblesse-oblige/#comment-328</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[L Magee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.roughtheory.org/content/noblesse-oblige/#comment-328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would add that this sort of sentiment belongs to a certain strain of Romanticism which is also very sceptical  of the very rationalism that you seem to imply is required to &quot;confront a complex problem like global warming&quot;. In other words, rationalism is itself &quot;outside nature&quot;, and even responsible for taking us &quot;out&quot; - how can it be used to get us &quot;back in&quot;? Better then to rely upon some pre-rational (if rational can be equated with, since it is the cause of, modernism) insights that can be used to reverse-engineer the current situation in some way... Of course you don&#039;t need cave representations to suggest that we in our time are &quot;out of nature&quot;, and the problem with such interpretations is that they tend to project the evils of &quot;now&quot; against the prelapsarian idylls of &quot;then&quot;, in a way that is all too familiar to those reared on Protestant sermons in their childhood... The only step &quot;forward&quot; in the logic of this sort of myth, is to make collective peace with the &quot;nature&quot; we have disturbed, rather than step yet further &quot;outside&quot; it in trying to save it, and ourselves. 

It might too be argued that this is reading somewhat too much into a journalistic piece on a sunny Sunday afternoon...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add that this sort of sentiment belongs to a certain strain of Romanticism which is also very sceptical  of the very rationalism that you seem to imply is required to &#8220;confront a complex problem like global warming&#8221;. In other words, rationalism is itself &#8220;outside nature&#8221;, and even responsible for taking us &#8220;out&#8221; &#8211; how can it be used to get us &#8220;back in&#8221;? Better then to rely upon some pre-rational (if rational can be equated with, since it is the cause of, modernism) insights that can be used to reverse-engineer the current situation in some way&#8230; Of course you don&#8217;t need cave representations to suggest that we in our time are &#8220;out of nature&#8221;, and the problem with such interpretations is that they tend to project the evils of &#8220;now&#8221; against the prelapsarian idylls of &#8220;then&#8221;, in a way that is all too familiar to those reared on Protestant sermons in their childhood&#8230; The only step &#8220;forward&#8221; in the logic of this sort of myth, is to make collective peace with the &#8220;nature&#8221; we have disturbed, rather than step yet further &#8220;outside&#8221; it in trying to save it, and ourselves. </p>
<p>It might too be argued that this is reading somewhat too much into a journalistic piece on a sunny Sunday afternoon&#8230;</p>
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